All it costs to fulfill the average person's needs for digital services is a $5 per month VPS instance. It's even cheaper if you buy a single board computer and host your services at home.
We've been letting companies steal our personal data and sell it to the highest bidder and destroying democracy in the process all to save what? A coffee a month?
This is one of the worst deals in history.
@njoseph What do you host on that small of an instance and is it just for you? How do you do security? And finally what about putting all your data in one place? Do you worry about the service provider downtime or equipment malfunction and losing all your data?
@jeff I run a FreedomBox instance on a single board computer which I temporarily moved to a 2.5 euro instance on Hetzner till I can fix the power backup issue at home. I wrote about my usage here
We cannot expect the average privacy-conscious person to have sysadmin and infosec skills. The self-hosting platform should take care of these. In my case, I trust the underlying #Debian operating system to provide me regular security updates and #FreedomBox for maintenance.
@njoseph There are certain issues with security when you talk about cloud hosting though. We take these for granted when a large company like Google is hosting our data, but when we self-host it becomes our responsibility.
FYI I am reading up on FreedomBox now so forgive me if I have asked questions that I will inevitably discover the answers to in my research.
@njoseph the $ cost is not the major barrier. I have a friend who can do email and FB, but thinks a wiki with a WYSIWYG editor requires a "tech whiz" to operate (their words). Geeks tend to heavily under-appreciate how much experience-based knowledge we hold, and how complicated learning new digital tools and processes is for most people
@akkartik @njoseph Amen to that. I'm trying to retrain myself to patiently explain to people why I avoid FB and suggest they do the same, instead of getting all exasperated and sarcastic as if it should be obvious to everyone by now. Again, it's easy to forget how much experience-based knowledge I hold as a fulltime geek activist
@strypey @njoseph I think we also need to reduce the cost of doing so by providing betters tools for that (for those who wants it), both the cost or time involved in that and the time needed to learn that.
Doing what you describe is a huge involvement in time today sadly (just think about handling emails...)
Freedombox and others are working on that but we really aren't a lot doing so :/ (it's not the funniest thing to do)
FreedomBox was involved in community hosting too, in a few villages and university campuses. That reminds me. I should continue writing this WikiBook.
@njoseph @RussSharek definitely good to have this list available on a public web page. Are they all distros that can run on a box-in-the-closet though? That's the use case for F-Box, F-Bone, and YUNO. My understand is that Cloudron and Sandstorm, for example, need more resources than a box-in-the-closet can realistically provide
Will update the urls soon.
@njoseph @RussSharek ae, I'm aware of the great work #Framasoft do, and I'm a #Disroot user (and a #RiseUp user for more than a decade). What I'm challenging is the idea that the end goal of #self-hosting is atomized individuals hosting only their own individual stuff. I'm not against that at all, it's a legitimate option for those privileged to have the skills, but I don't see it as realistic or even desirable for everyone to do it that way.
@strypey @RussSharek I'd say that it's no longer a hardware problem, since today's ARM boards are more powerful than the servers of 20 years ago. It's just a matter of creating software that makes it convenient enough to do self-hosting.
Isn't one smartphone per person inefficient too? If each person can have an ARM device in their pocket running client applications, they can also have another ARM device at home running server applications. We just have to build the software for it.
@njoseph @RussSharek see my original posts. No, it's not a hardware problem, and yes better #UX for hosting distros will help. But there's a reason most people don't grow their own veges, even though they could. Human communities learned a long time ago that specialization is a more efficient use of human effort than everybody doing everything as an atomized individual.
@njoseph @RussSharek it's not practical to share pocket-size client devices (eg "smartphone") in the same way it is to share a VPS or box-in-the-closet. But I'd like to see a return to more shared client devices too, eg a shared #GNU #Linux PC-as-a-screen ("Smart TV") that families use to take turns pulling up short #PeerTube videos to watch together, or playing instrumental versions of songs to sing along to together
I'm thinking about a use case where self-hosting becomes a commodity like smartphones. It might still not be desirable for everyone, but it should be possible and not very hard to do.
Ideally, these companies shouldn't have forced us to resort to self-hosting in the first place. I fear the same may happen with agriculture in the near future.
@njoseph @RussSharek again, I'm not saying *nobody* ought to run their own server or grow their own veges. On the contrary, if you have the skills, the time, and the resources, go for it! Even if you don't have the skills, learning through doing is a great way to acquire them. But I observe that most people would rather delegate jobs like that to specialist services, and those don't have to be mediated by corporations (and it's better for many reasons if they're not)
@njoseph @RussSharek to some degree, the false dichotomy of be livestock on #DataFarms, or pure #DIY, is part of what keeps people on the datafarms. It's important we create and promote third options; family self-hosting, organization self-hosting, cooperatives, not-for-profits, social enterprises etc etc. Part of that is articuating clear criteria for why corporations are a problem here, and how replacements need to be different ie *not* VC-funded startups
If that one person moves out, or has a falling-out with the family, or otherwise no longer has the time and contact to deal with those issues...
Even if family/household/group hosting is an option, it's still important to ensure that there's more than one person who can handle that side.
@dartigen @strypey @njoseph @RussSharek there is also a privacy / trust issue here. If a single person was looking after server instances for their 100 to 200 friends, then it would become a big deal among that community for that person to be trustworthy. People could no longer tell themselves 'who would want to spy on me' because the relevant person would know them personally.
@highfellow @dartigen @njoseph @RussSharek
true, the ongoing skill-sharing and tech mentoring is important to the sustainability of community hosting, as I mentioned early in the thread
This kind of thinking illuminates a big part of why I'm interested in people getting together (forming communities/commons) for the production & maintenance of services & stuff (I've currently got a big focus on food)
It brings possible upsides and downsides of that thing back into focus, rather than being obscured behind what is often massive, complex opaque infrastructures of delivery.
@njoseph In my case, the ISP blocks port 80 and 443 (and our net neutrality rules are dead) so I can’t host my own site except over Tor
My blog and all personal postings are now on a hidden service exactly for this reason. I’m using an old Thinkpad that I got on eBay years ago that now has a dead battery
@njoseph singe board computers FTW
@njoseph except that you could never run a Ruby beast like Mastodon fluently on a $5 VPS
@njoseph this is why I still keep the online stuff I care about on my own blog. With RSS!
Who has enough money to buy $5 coffees, even once a month?
i could not agree more.
@njoseph and who teaches them the skills to keep the stuff up to date and secure? Let alone to run it in the first place. Most people aren’t able to do that and don’t have the time and will to learn it.
@nielsk Please read my first reply on that toot.
Mastodon's 500 character limit didn't let me fully describe my intent.
@njoseph I did. How long does it take to have all your services up and running again when your single board computer or the disk with enough space for all your stuff fails? Do you have a monitor server to see problems when they come up? What do you do when Debian breaks one of your services? What are you using as your secondary MX? A second FreedomBox?
I think it is a good idea basically but has several problems in execution.
@njoseph Especially when you put in people who do not have the time or will to learn the stuff. I wouldn’t be able to fix my own car either
@nielsk I like the analogy. The current situation with digital services is like everybody is using rented car services. Self-hosting is like getting your own car. There will be some maintenance effort but more freedom. Not everybody that drives a car has enough skill to be a car mechanic either.
Automation of servers is easier than car maintenance automation. Self-hosting services typically are self-maintaining and come with automatic backup and restore.
@njoseph they do? The last time I checked for example my Nextcloud notifies me about updates, has often problems with the automatic update and I have to intervene and I didn’t see anything about backups (except the “backup” before an upgrade which won’t backup all the data to a different server)
@nielsk I have to agree that we're not there yet. A self-hosting solution won't replace a professional sysadmin. It should be seen as a good enough utility that automates enough of the day-to-day maintenance that normal smartphone-using people can use it without much IT skills.
BTW, I wouldn't categorize NextCloud into the same category as FreedomBox.
@nielsk I agree that it's somewhat complicated to execute but we do have people running FreedomBoxes for years now.
We don't have all the features yet - full disk backups, email servers, notification systems and dashboards etc. but they are being actively developed.
Debian does break things in testing and unstable releases. It is safer to run the stable release instead. Early adopters are running the testing release for now.
@njoseph I saw Debian-systems running stable where software broke. Especially when you did a dist-upgrade from 8 to 9 and had the upgrade from php 5.6 to php 7.
@njoseph the thing is that people who are interested in dabbling with IT-systems are running Freedomboxes and not John and Jane Doe from their living room.
@nielsk I think we already concluded on this discussion that #CommunityHosting is a better solution than self-hosting for now, if you read the original thread of the toot.
But the fact that people are able to maintain their own Android phones gives me hope that self-hosting can be a viable option in the future. (One can still argue that many people still can't maintain their own Android phones).
@njoseph Android is such a bad example with its short EOL-times and that cheap devices come already with an EOL-Android and you do not get upgrades from the manufacturer. And flashing is beyond many people.
@njoseph and show me the VPS-Hoster that gives me for $5 a system with enough space for my owncloud. And a single board computer at home won’t help you in hosting mail because most professional mail-providers block incoming mail from dynamic IPs because it is usually only tons of spam etc etc.
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